Curse

Cottage Pie · May 02, 2006, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagflame

You're a moron... anything in which trading is possible has an economy, I thought that even the most braindead of people would realize that.

Besides, you only posted in order to stir the pot so leave and find another forum to troll. No one wants you here.

such a reducto-ad-absurbum arguement, not gonna 'buy' your reasoning, however. one could jokingly argue it's hardly economical to spend 300K on something worth 30k...

And i am not trolling...just strongly disputing there is a pre-searing economy, when infact it's just a tiny niche group of people! it's utterly a post searing economy superimposed. The items should never be there, they are post searing, the trades are probably in post-searing gold. Anything but pre-searing, get my meaning?

Cottage Pie · May 02, 2006, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagflame

Besides, you only posted in order to stir the pot so leave and find another forum to troll. No one wants you here.

and i'm sure the numerous people who've PM'd me to say thanks pieface after i stopped them getting ripped off/helped them do THK/given a '10K noob pack' would disagree, yeah? This is just my opinion, not a pointless troll.

Terra Xin · May 02, 2006, 12:31 PM // 12:31

ok, ok. I take my ignore back... omg.... im ignoring myself^^ lol jk.

*bows*

Fort Ranik, pre-searing armour.... there is money to be made there, for people who cant spend 10 minutes hunting for it themselves.

You're absolutely right though. Pre-searing economy is relatively insignificant when compared to Post, but that doesn't mean there isn't one.

omg.... use the edit feature on your first post, you'll get in trouble...

Actually, I also hate the dye scammers in Pre. I do all I can to stop them. They get pissed off, but I've saved a few peoples stress.

500g for blue dye..... and he's saying he's sold one in LA... Thank god I know how to throw passive insults.

Cottage Pie · May 02, 2006, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

ok, ok. I take my ignore back... omg.... im ignoring myself^^ lol jk.

*bows*

Fort Ranik, pre-searing armour.... there is money to be made there, for people who cant spend 10 minutes hunting for it themselves.

You're absolutely right though. Pre-searing economy is relatively insignificant when compared to Post, but that doesn't mean there isn't one.

omg.... use the edit feature on your first post, you'll get in trouble...

I just said there's not one to speak ofcos 95% of people there probably are just trying to escape into ascalon and get ran on their 10th character or something. the people who spend insane amounts on cash on having uber weapons there form like....0.001%, and that is no economy ^_^

also this

Quote:

8) Black dye are NOT worth as much as they are in post-Searing

got me annoyed, cos that attitude is the arguement i get of pre-sear dye scammers spamming "WTB black dye for 100g pls" when I tell 'em to stop scamming... I suppose it is the fundamental arguement here - in how I and the OP see the pre searing economy - i see them as being worth the same (as do most people) cos you only have to do one mission and boom you've got a 9k pot of black gold.

Terra Xin · May 02, 2006, 12:54 PM // 12:54

I see my ignore button is still on me... it doesn't have the same effect on you does it?

Quote:

One last addendum, before we get started. This is a "guide" for those who have characters that are intended to stay in pre-Searing. And I would much appreciate me, or anyone who posts here, to not be bashed for our choice to make a pre-Character. The bottom line is, I play this game for fun, and I think pre-Searing is fun.

I see your post running away from the screen... I don't trade just so that people can go off scanting that they have uber... or whatever you call it... items. That's going into snobbery (noob callers)... which I despise and hate above all.

*tease* there is too an economy. My obvious proof of existing trades in pre outweighs your badly estimated 0.001%. At least give some crudentials.

The ppl who try to buy 100g black dye are most likely new players.... not scammers. They hear about black dye and think "oh, I want black too". Those people, who haven't heard of a dye trader... I kindly remind them about how much black dye is worth. That separates them from scammers.

I'm not as lucky as you seem to be at finding black dye. I've only ever come across... like... 5 in my whole time playing.

theRizzler · May 02, 2006, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Just a few comments..

First, I obviously didn't specify the difference in value of pre/post black dye. I in no way meant that it should be bought/sold cheap there, but cheaper than in post (unless trading for post gold). All of the black dye I have in pre-Searing, I bought it for 6k each, and that's what I price it at as a resell value. I'm not out to scam anyone, and I apologize for not going into further detail on the issue.

Second, I think you're missing the point of this thread, Cottage Pie.
The only reason I posted it is because, like you're saying, the economy in pre-Searing is very insignificant compared to post, and I just wanted more people to be aware of the fact that some people do have characters that remain in pre-Searing, for whatever the reason may be. Helping guildies through pre, recruiting for newbie guilds, or just for fun. And due to this fact, there is a demand (however small it may be) for certain items there. Thus, there is an economy. Again, I stress it is a very small economy, but there are quite a few nice, dedicated players in pre who would like to improve their character to the maximum given the limitations of their choice of the character's location.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

I'm not as lucky as you seem to be at finding black dye. I've only ever come across... like... 5 in my whole time playing.

Honestly Terra, I've only found two on that character. The way I make most of my money in pre is by power leveling people. eg: Solo'ing Charr for them

Gonzo · May 02, 2006, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Actually, people that buy dye for 100g are most likely scammers. On another fansite (I believe guild hall) there is even a guide to earn quick cash, and the black dye scam is even added to that guide (also not to do it in crowded districts, since then there is less change of another player warning the newbie about the true value of black dye).

theRizzler · May 02, 2006, 01:18 PM // 13:18

Yes, a lot of them are, Gonzo.

I've always thought it would help so much to have a dye trader in pre. Just so the newbies would be able to see the actual value of their dye, instead of having to take someone's word for it.

But that would never happen, it's just a pipe dream.

Terra Xin · May 02, 2006, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzo

Actually, people that buy dye for 100g are most likely scammers. On another fansite (I believe guild hall) there is even a guide to earn quick cash, and the black dye scam is even added to that guide (also not to do it in crowded districts, since then there is less change of another player warning the newbie about the true value of black dye).

There is???

good thing I only ever come to this website. I'd fecth my shutdown mes, lol.

Braggi · May 02, 2006, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cottage Pie

I just said there's not one to speak of cos 95% of people there probably are just trying to escape into ascalon and get ran on their 10th character or something. the people who spend insane amounts on cash on having uber weapons there form like....0.001%, and that is no economy ^_^

Well, even in real life there's a lot of companies who can live very comfortably on a niche, so the relative size compared to the mass market is no valid indicator wether its an economy or not. Most people ignoring the niche economy will just make the niche more profitable.

Sure, the uber items are mostly artefacts of a time long gone, but so are antiques...

The dye prices are actually interesting. The hypothetical pre-sear dye trader must not be linked to the post sear trader. Then I'd agree that prices would be lower for lack of buyers, because few people passing through will spend money on fashion that is outdated as soon as post is reached. But there seem to be some artful dodgers around, dancing, chatting and generally not doing much who'd be interested in fashion, as are some role players, guild recruiters and the regulars.
Some will sell their dyes - they want cash, the inventory space, or don't have a clue. But if prices were too low, it would be best for most to hang on to their dyes until post.

Would the minimum sell price in pre be a lot lower than the minimum buy price of post sear (even when gold is much harder to farm in pre)? I doubt it, because then regulars might farm gold, and any twink on his way through might realise the arbitrage revenue in post.
Still 6k is a lot - my chars usually switched to post with less than 2k. So the real value for black in pre would be like time needed to farm 6k + arbitrage revenue vs time needed to farm 8k or whatever in post.

Inventory slots are scarce, so what to use them for? salvaging materials is a waste unless you save up for post - 4g per salvage + sell price is for most items (including low level "highly salvagable" ones) not more than the sell price of the materials in pre.

Side thought: Flowers are another nice export to post - i've seen people buy the stuff for 10g each in pre, probably storing them away for opportunities like valentine's day.

theRizzler · May 02, 2006, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Braggi, lots of Guilds run scavenger hunts for things such as flowers in pre, that's where I see most people buying them from.

Also, another major export from pre to post is Charr Hides.

And for all practicality, these are the reasons I've seen that make black dye cheaper to buy in pre (technically, but not logically).

1) It drops more often there, given the area of the map and the ammount of players on it, than it does anywhere else in the game (not just black dye, dye in general)
2) The biggest reason: pre gold is harder to come by than post gold. Now, to characters that do not have extended visits to pre, this does not matter. They would be much better off selling their dye in post, or buying it in pre (if they had the cash). But for those of us with characters in pre, we realise that gold is more valuable in pre, due to it's scarcity. Pretty much everything that cannot be purchased from a merchant, in pre, holds more value to a pre-character than the same item in post. This, again, is due to the fact that such items are rare, and cannot simply be bought from a local town merchant.

Braggi · May 03, 2006, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Charr hides are a nice fallout from farming the charr, agreed. I doubt it is more efficient than fighting in post (i have access to better skills there). I still wonder if the regulars are mostly single, or affiliated to guilds - recruiting and testing new players, rushing twinks through pre?

Quote:

Originally Posted by theRizzler

1) It drops more often there, given the area of the map and the ammount of players on it, than it does anywhere else in the game (not just black dye, dye in general)

I didn't see any hard numbers for this, but that's my impression as well. Maybe its due to the fact that there are so few other drops.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theRizzler

2) The biggest reason: pre gold is harder to come by than post gold. Now, to characters that do not have extended visits to pre, this does not matter. They would be much better off selling their dye in post, or buying it in pre (if they had the cash).

Might be. Farming gold in post usually means to multiply your results by selling expensively to other players, which works limited in pre (like selling wall weapons to starters). Still I think my reasoning for normal dyes is true while the regular pre economy is so small - if any passerby can make a quick buck by buying lower than post buy prices, he will. So there's a lower price limit. But black is different; 6k or more is a hurdle the normal passerby doesn't take (because this requires some farming beyond the wall).

When all is said and done, what can you buy with gold as a longtime regular? With the 100k limit per character, black dye obviously has taken the ectos role in pre - to store wealth. The exploit items are an ever dwindling market (antiques), I think if I'd try to buy a sup salvage use, it would take me more than just 2 black dyes. The same goes for weapon artefacts - if someone deletes his pre character I doubt he'd sell/ give to anyone.
And I think some would kill for additional 10 slot bags ^^.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theRizzler

But for those of us with characters in pre, we realise that gold is more valuable in pre, due to it's scarcity. Pretty much everything that cannot be purchased from a merchant, in pre, holds more value to a pre-character than the same item in post. This, again, is due to the fact that such items are rare, and cannot simply be bought from a local town merchant.

Here it gets interesting. What we omitted until now is how to make a new permanent pre char. If you solo it, the hardest part is around lvl 8-10, because leveling inside is slow and leveling beyond the wall is still hard for someone lacking equipment.
So an interesting area would be the "best drop" drop market there - what are the best weapons available in pre, what prices can be fetched?

theRizzler · May 03, 2006, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Braggi.. In response to the first part of your post, I sell Charr hides for 35g/ea in pre-Searing, to make some spare change on my character there. The players then take them to post and sell them for 50g each (or just swap 4 out for a fur square), so I make money, and they make money. Good business.

Also, the population is very broad. There are many guilds who have players that stay in pre just to recruit, but most of the people I know are there by themselves. Another popular trend I'm seeing, however, are guilds popping up made for pre-Searing characters.

As for the numbers of the dye drops, I don't have any exact figures. What I do have, however, are some very concrete theories.

Most of the monsters that are capable of dropping dye in pre, and those that do so on a regular basis, are very low level. When I farm for dye, I either farm 1 of 3 locations. The undead, in The Catacombs is one location. Dye drops very frequently here. All of the monsters are level 1-3, with the occassional level 5 boss. The 2nd, which may I add, has been nerfed. These are the bandits located just outside of Ashford Abbey (from the quest "Bandit Raid"). They still drop dye, just not nearly as much as they used to. Once again, all low level. 1-3.

The last, and my personal favorite. River Skales and Skale Broodcallers RIGHT outside of Fort Ranik. I use some AoE from that monk smiting skill (can't remember the name right now..), and can usually take them ALL out in 1-2 casts of that (depends on how tightly they group around me). And as most people who have farmed for dye for any amount of time can tell you, it's quantity over quality when it comes to the monsters you're killing.

Killing 20 or so Skale at once gives you a much better chance of a dye dropping than going out and killing 20 of the 2/7 charr here that can drop dye. BTW, these runs usually net me a dye drop every 2-3 runs (sometimes much more frequently, sometimes much less).

As for the last bit of your post, I must say.. Warriors have it easy in the weapons department in pre. You can get a Rinblade from the Crafter for 10 Iron Ingots, and 100g. The weapon is pretty sick compared to the normal drops here. That pretty much reigns over all the other professions, but then again, they don't have to rely as much on their weapons.

Braggi · May 04, 2006, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by theRizzler

As for the last bit of your post, I must say.. Warriors have it easy in the weapons department in pre. You can get a Rinblade from the Crafter for 10 Iron Ingots, and 100g. The weapon is pretty sick compared to the normal drops here. That pretty much reigns over all the other professions, but then again, they don't have to rely as much on their weapons.

Ranger may get a pretty bow from Aidan, too. Still found better bows beyond the wall in a short time (better being relative here, but higher damage than 7-10).

Caster staffs from inside are mostly crap and I can't craft them - I use a 1H staff, and the healing ankh from menhlo atm.
Raising my necro's blood magic or curses gives little return per attribute point after 5, so (especially at lvl 8-10) a good staff that just adds to the damage pressure makes things easier.

Lord Sojar · May 04, 2006, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Why are you guys discussing this? Presearing was pretty, is a lead in to the main story line, you are MEANT to leave presearing... You not elite by staying in pre, your anything but elite. Presearing is for new, low level characters, not level 13+ people. Stop discussing a pointless area of this game when you look at the bigger picture. It is what... 10% of the game, no more like 6-7%. jeez, this is really ridiculous... Oh well, this is what you people do for fun, argue over noobland, Tyria. GG, congrats on your black dye collection. Try bringing those to post and actually making a profit rather then staying in that pretty, pathetic area of lowbies.. Jeez....

RTSFirebat · May 04, 2006, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Why are you guys discussing this? Presearing was pretty, is a lead in to the main story line, you are MEANT to leave presearing... You not elite by staying in pre, your anything but elite. Presearing is for new, low level characters, not level 13+ people. Stop discussing a pointless area of this game when you look at the bigger picture. It is what... 10% of the game, no more like 6-7%. jeez, this is really ridiculous... Oh well, this is what you people do for fun, argue over noobland, Tyria. GG, congrats on your black dye collection. Try bringing those to post and actually making a profit rather then staying in that pretty, pathetic area of lowbies.. Jeez....

There was a person like you in Pre-Searing yesterday, just flaming any high level characters.

Yes your meant to leave there, but it doesn't mean you have to! Really you whole post was one big flame and really if people want to remain in Pre-Searing then let me.

My Monk/Warrior in pre-searing is happy to be there at the moment, fighting charr, collecting black dyes. I may never move her to Post-Searing.

Now flame off and go cool down somewhere...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzo

Actually, people that buy dye for 100g are most likely scammers. On another fansite (I believe guild hall) there is even a guide to earn quick cash, and the black dye scam is even added to that guide (also not to do it in crowded districts, since then there is less change of another player warning the newbie about the true value of black dye).

So everyone who buys dye at that price is a scammer? That's stupid. I got 4 purple dyes yesterday while I was making Pink Dye for my Pre-searing monk... does that make me a scammer?

No its doesn't.

Braggi · May 04, 2006, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Stop discussing a pointless area of this game when you look at the bigger picture.

Like, RL? I might ask my mother then what she thinks about someone spending 2k hours in a game...

I'd appreciate if you don't tell us what or what not to do. Anyone not interested in a thread may always just skip it. Txs.

theRizzler · May 04, 2006, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Why are you guys discussing this?

Gah.. I've said it before, I'll say it again. A little reading goes a long way.
Start about... Right here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by theRizzler

One last addendum, before we get started. This is a "guide" for those who have characters that are intended to stay in pre-Searing. And I would much appreciate me, or anyone who posts here, to not be bashed for our choice to make a pre-Character. The bottom line is, I play this game for fun, and I think pre-Searing is fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rahja the Thief

Jeez....

Heh.. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Onto a more serious, and intellectually valuable, cerebral stimulation..

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzo

Actually, people that buy dye for 100g are most likely scammers. On another fansite (I believe guild hall) there is even a guide to earn quick cash, and the black dye scam is even added to that guide (also not to do it in crowded districts, since then there is less change of another player warning the newbie about the true value of black dye).

So everyone who buys dye at that price is a scammer? That's stupid. I got 4 purple dyes yesterday while I was making Pink Dye for my Pre-searing monk... does that make me a scammer?

No its doesn't.

Gonzo, please do not allow me to speak for you, but RTS, awaiting a response from him, I can possibly offer some insight as to his theories, because I do partly agree with his statements.

There are some people who troll around pre, offering to buy all dyes for a set price (usually not higher than 100g). The target of these buyers is quite often silver/black dye, which they hope to get for next to nothing, from newbies. Also, half of the dye in pre is worth more than 100g. So most dye purchased at that price can be sold again, at an inflated price, to yield a higher profit. And to an extent, this is just economy, but after it goes so far, it's a gyp. Especially in the case of them purchasing black/silver dye from newbies who do not know any better. Because I guarantee that if over half of their customers knew the value of their dye beforehand, they would not sell to them.

However, in the case of some dye (purple, yellow, maybe even orange), 100g is more than a fair price in pre. But honestly, I think Gonzo was talking about the people who are intentionally attempting to purchase the highest value dye at prices that are RIDICULOUSLY deflated, just to turn around and sell them at standard market price, or a reasonably inflated variant thereof.

RTSFirebat · May 04, 2006, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by theRizzler

There are some people who troll around pre, offering to buy all dyes for a set price (usually not higher than 100g). The target of these buyers is quite often silver/black dye, which they hope to get for next to nothing, from newbies. Also, half of the dye in pre is worth more than 100g. So most dye purchased at that price can be sold again, at an inflated price, to yield a higher profit. And to an extent, this is just economy, but after it goes so far, it's a gyp. Especially in the case of them purchasing black/silver dye from newbies who do not know any better. Because I guarantee that if over half of their customers knew the value of their dye beforehand, they would not sell to them.

However, in the case of some dye (purple, yellow, maybe even orange), 100g is more than fair price in pre. But honestly, I think Gonzo was talking about the people who are intentionally attempting to purchase the highest value dye at prices that are RIDICULOUSLY deflated, just to turn around and sell them at standard market price, or a reasonably inflated variant thereof.

Good points all around.

Yes its true there are people who spam spam spam for dyes at only 100g and then sell them at 3 times the price. Sadly this is a fault on A.nets are.

Maybe they should change it so that when you first pickup a dye, a blue help pop-up box should tell you what they generally are worth, appox only of course. Like this:

"You have picked up a dye. To use it on your armor or weapons simply double click on the dye and then click on the item you wish to apply it to. All dyes have only one use, even if you mix different dyes together. Dyes are worth different amounts in the player market. Check at a Dye trader before selling them"

Sadly it will always be the case where there are people spamming in Pre-searing trying to take advantage of people.

theRizzler · May 04, 2006, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Yes, that would help many new players in their quest to not get ripped off.

So would adding a Dye Trader to pre. It won't happen, and it would sort of mess with the pre-economy.. But it would be worth it, so the newbies wouldn't lose so much gold to the scammers.